1st June Show with Dr. Bernard Haisch

[Aaron LeClair]

I use the words correct or incorrect when dealing with functionality, or agreed upon answers like 2+2=4. It helps bypass the semantical confusion that may arise when dealing with a moralistic right and wrong.

[Chuckleberryfinn]

Dr. Haisch posits the existence of a god outside of time and space, utterly transcendent and thus unknowable.

Then he offers a theory on why existence exists: this master intellect, the divine "I AM," did it for entertainment. He explains the actions of a being who supposedly exists beyond time and space which the language of time and space.

In other words, Dr. Haisch, admittedly not having had a "mystical experience," analyzes what exists beyond time and space from the perspective of something that does. This is like measuring one's soul with a ruler, it cannot be done.

[BrandonD]

Originally Posted by CapnG

Really, must I go back to the dictionary AGAIN? A car that is unable to drive is not working "wrongly", it's not working PERIOD. But it's irrelevant anyway because right and wrong are simply judgements we make. Regardless of how we judge it, the car is still a car. Likewise whether or not you personally think the universe is operating correctly or not, it is still the universe. And those judgements are not always morally rooted either, sometimes they are arbitrary, kinda like the one you're making the case for here.

Alright, I get your point with the majority of your post. But I have to say that right and wrong can be precise (and not arbitrary) judgments when they are within a certain context. And I'm making them within a certain context, the context of Bernard's theory.

I could ramble on like I usually do, but to just sum up my contention with his theory, it really doesn't explain the necessity of suffering and ignorance. Especially suffering and ignorance on the massive scale that it exists here in the world.

This is always my problem with these doe-eyed theories that "all is well".

[CapnG]

Originally Posted by BrandonD

But I have to say that right and wrong can be precise (and not arbitrary) judgments when they are within a certain context.

I never said they couldn't be just that they aren't always so. Context, of course, is everything. As our perspective gets less focussed, it's harder to make that call. It's easy to judge whether or not a cake came out right or wrong based on it's taste. Not quite so easy to cast pronouncements about the state of the universe, I think.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

Especially suffering and ignorance on the massive scale that it exists here in the world.

This is always my problem with these doe-eyed theories that "all is well".

Well here's where I part company with guys like Bernard. I don't subscribe to the notion that this is all some grand design in which we are the star players. Our existence could be a minor, or even an accidental occurance.

We judge things like suffering and ignorace to be "wrong" because we're the ones who must endure it, ergo it's negative from our perspective. In the grand scheme of things however it may simply be the way things are, with no framework of morality what-so-ever (or at least not in a format we would recognize).

[Crow]

Enjoyed the show. All I can say is if there is such a thing as reincarnation...I hope we get to have some voice in whether we come back or not, cause there's no way in hell I want to come back.

[BrandonD]

Originally Posted by CapnG

Well here's where I part company with guys like Bernard. I don't subscribe to the notion that this is all some grand design in which we are the star players. Our existence could be a minor, or even an accidental occurance.

We judge things like suffering and ignorace to be "wrong" because we're the ones who must endure it, ergo it's negative from our perspective. In the grand scheme of things however it may simply be the way things are, with no framework of morality what-so-ever (or at least not in a format we would recognize).

I'm actually not referring to morality, I think you may be getting something different out of what I'm saying.

Here's an interesting mystery: all the thoughtful people I know suffer from a sense that they are in a state of disconnection and ignorance. We have no idea why we are here, we do not know the future, and our consciousness is most definitely separate from the outside world. And yet, this has been our condition for the duration of our life. We know of nothing else.

A blinded man only laments his infirmity because he knows of a time when he once could see. If he were born blind, and was isolated from people who could see, he would have no reason to even suspect the true function of his eyes. He has no frame of reference outside of his condition.

And yet within our consciousness we seem to have some frame of reference outside of this physical existence, a frame of reference that recognizes that our current state is one of disconnection and ignorance, and that there exists a state of connection and enlightenment. And thus we suffer and struggle.

This sort of thinking is generally considered absurd from the materialist point of view, but as consciousness rises to a place of prominence in the foundation of existence, I think it will become less absurd.

"A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth man's minds about to religion." -Francis Bacon

[Snoman]

Originally Posted by BrandonD

but as consciousness rises to a place of prominence in the foundation of existence, I think it will become less absurd.

Seems to me mankind is heading the other direction and the decline of consciousness will eventually break the foundation of existence rather than contribute to understanding it.

[CapnG]

Originally Posted by BrandonD

And yet within our consciousness we seem to have some frame of reference outside of this physical existence, a frame of reference that recognizes that our current state is one of disconnection and ignorance, and that there exists a state of connection and enlightenment. And thus we suffer and struggle.

So.... Buddhism?

This of course assumes that there actually IS a state of connection and enlightment to be reached and that it is not merely a coping mechanism devised by our imaginations to help us deal with the horrible reality of sentience.

[7 String]

Pardon the Pun,,,, but Jesus Christ! David you have out done yourself on this one. I'm going to have to listen to this episode a few more times just to grasp the information that all of you brought to the table. David, I don't even know where to start with you???? I've always been amazed by the wealth of knowledge that you bring to the Paracast. You and Gene both make me proud to say I'm a loyal listener. The integritity and knowledge you both have makes it very easy for me to feel confident to use the paracast as reference in conversations I have with others on the topic of Para-normal. Keep up the great work!

This entire episode has confirmed so many thoughts that I too have had over the years, hearing them from a very intelligent view point really laid some validation on the subject to me. WOW!

I've often wondered what do we really know about the universe and ourselves? Think about it,,,, the universe is so massive that we are in fact, here on earth no bigger than the microbes that we have living on our smallest stones in our plant box's! Just imagine that microbe may have it's own way of thinking and understanding, based on it's size in it's own world. It is probably no more able to shoot across the street to the next nearest plant box than we are to get to the next galaxy. Yet for us we can walk across the street in seconds, providing we aren't struck down by a delivery truck....lol
For all we know based on the large picture of the universe, the earth is no more than a Cell on something much larger, and we are nothing more than just parasites hitching a ride on that cell..... Crazy thought provoking episode.

David, I've been a guitarist for 26 years now and I know exactly what you talking about when you are in the moment with the music, all the theory in the world cannot teach someone to be present at that exact moment of "absolute musical expression" only musicians that dare know what that feeling is all about and that is what keeps us going until the next time. One of the drills I do in practicing is called "romancing the note". I will spend or lose hours at a time when I'm focused on a single note. I will strike a note and be there in that moment as the note is first brought to life, I listen to every nuance of that note as it comes to life, then as it slowly falls to silence. I add vibrato and simply focus on that note and everything it does as related to what I do and how I feel, I connect an emotion to that note and allow myself to vibrate and become one with it. This practice drives my wife nuts, understandably so...... however it's when this control comes to life and others feel it at the same time you do, those hours spent on that one note have hit pay dirt when the emotional attachment I placed on a note is heard by others!

Anyway sorry for the rant, Great show Dave and Gene!

Allen

[sk4p]

Great, great stuff. I'm another self-styled Gnostic: I think the reality of the Divine is waaaaay the hell bigger than the mainstream religions tend to give it credit for, but at the same time, I think that Something Is Wrong. There must be some interesting twist, or problem, or purpose, which all the tribulation and suffering in the human experience is intended to solve or address. Like someone said, it seems hard to imagine that the Supreme Being is so keen on reality TV that It has to watch it through so many different pairs of eyes so many times.

What I liked about Dr. Haisch was his complete willingness to make statements with great intellectual honesty ("Well, I think ..." or "I don't know, but I believe ..."). He was reasonably comfortable expressing his opinions and beliefs but was scrupulous in disclaiming them as such and separating them from things which can be demonstrated via the Scientific Method. And that gets big points from me.

Between Allen and Jim last week, and A.J. and Derek and Richard the weeks before, you guys are on a run of great guests.

--Shawn