1st June Show with Dr. Bernard Haisch

[Bluntman]

I've listened to the show since around the 10th episode and never felt compelled to comment - I'm really pretty lazy. I had a little trouble accessing the discussion forums tonight and tried some links from google. I found a few forums where David Biedney, and to a lesser extent Gene Steinberg were savaged as hosts and interviewers and people.

[align=center]Let those people listen to this show.[/align]

It was superb. Every statement the guest made that raised questions in my mind prompted those exact questions to be asked by the hosts. I have rarely heard as intense and free flowing discussion as I have in this latest podcast. The ideas really had a "wow" factor.

This was a classic, the show was entertaining and thought provoking - I can't praise the show, or Dr Haisch and his ideas enough . I'll be buying the book.

Thanks

[BrandonD]

Originally Posted by Bluntman

It was superb. Every statement the guest made that raised questions in my mind prompted those exact questions to be asked by the hosts. I have rarely heard as intense and free flowing discussion as I have in this latest podcast. The ideas really had a "wow" factor.

This was a classic, the show was entertaining and thought provoking - I can't praise the show, or Dr Haisch and his ideas enough . I'll be buying the book.

Thanks

I enjoyed this show a lot, these are some of my favorite subjects to think about.

There is a missing element to the discussion, in my opinion. If we take the discussion out of the purely intellectual realm, I think the idea that human existence is nothing more than a perfect god-like intelligence wishing to physically experience itself seems a little weak.

Take yourself out of the intellectual world and I think there is a sense shared by everyone (at least everyone I know who is not religiously brainwashed) that something is very WRONG. Things are not working as they should be, something is not right. I can provide numerous examples, but I don't think they're even required because I believe this sense is innate. The fundamental properties of existence are ignorance and suffering.

The first thing a baby does when it's brought into this world is to cry.

Does this overarching sense of wrongness fit in with the idea that existence is simply this perfect little mechanism for a perfect blissful God to experience itself?

I think David touched upon this problem when he asked "Is this existence the most efficient way to get the job done?" In my opinion the answer is a definite no. If you have an ounce of imagination, you can conceive of a world where these ideas of lessons and karma work much more efficiently and smoothly... where the majority of life experience isn't *absolutely wasted* in front of a television.

How much mindless TV does God need to experience? Apparently a hell of a lot.

I think there is certainly something to what Bernard is saying, especially the idea that consciousness is the fundamental element of the universe, more fundamental than matter. I've personally experienced this with ayahuasca, and I'd recommend this method to anyone with an adventurous spirit who wants to experience that sort of thing (and isn't afraid of getting the sh*t scared out of them, because that's probably going to happen).

I personally think that something is wrong in existence, all is not well. I think that this is related to the reason why consciousness is here... I get the impression that consciousness is either trapped, or has been "injected" into the universe from outside in order to set right what is wrong. Maybe both.

This is a very gnostic idea, and there's a really old story from the apocryphal acts of Thomas called "The Hymn of the Pearl" that relates to this idea. It had a major impact upon me when I first read it, I read it at work and I suddenly started crying and went into the bathroom so no one would see me.

Here's a link to a condensed "americanized" translation, if the gnostic sort of ideas appeal to you:

http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/The_Other_Gospels/Hymn_of_the_Pearl.html

Anyway, enough of that stuff. Great show guys, still tops on my list of podcasts.

[CapnG]

Originally Posted by BrandonD

The first thing a baby does when it's brought into this world is to cry.

Babies cry because they've been removed from an ideal environment, where all their needs are catered to, so you can't really blame them! It's also however a mindless state of existence without thought or change or challenge.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

I think David touched upon this problem when he asked "Is this existence the most efficient way to get the job done?" In my opinion the answer is a definite no. If you have an ounce of imagination, you can conceive of a world where these ideas of lessons and karma work much more efficiently and smoothly... where the majority of life experience isn't *absolutely wasted* in front of a television.

Efficiency is not without price. Sometimes the value of an experience is the experience itself. I can read a novel or I can read the more efficent Cole's Notes. Watch a movie or read an online synopsis. I can do many things more efficiently (and usually I prefer to) but almost always I am trading speed for substance. Do only read the first and last chapters of a mystery novel? Do you wolf down a delicious meal rather than savour it? Chimpanzees have "efficient" sex but I don't plan on copying their methods anytime soon...

Originally Posted by BrandonD

I personally think that something is wrong in existence, all is not well. I think that this is related to the reason why consciousness is here... I get the impression that consciousness is either trapped, or has been "injected" into the universe from outside in order to set right what is wrong. Maybe both.

Right and wrong are human conventions, they have no bearing on the universe as a whole.

I enjoyed the episode although for me it was sort of like "Yep... uh-huh... yes, and?" since I agreed largely with the guest's views.

[UBERDOINK]

Good show. My only pet peeve is that they all discuss theology like children. They have an amazingly limited understanding of what religion, especially Christianity teaches, that all their arguments are paper dragon arguments against a parody of the belief-system.

Good show, but really, their "twilight zone" philosophical approach to this is just annoying.

[BrandonD]

Originally Posted by CapnG

Babies cry because they've been removed from an ideal environment, where all their needs are catered to, so you can't really blame them! It's also however a mindless state of existence without thought or change or challenge.

Ok, point taken. But as I said, examples aren't needed because, at least for myself and the intelligent thoughtful people that I've met, the sense of wrongness is innate.

Originally Posted by CapnG

Efficiency is not without price. Sometimes the value of an experience is the experience itself. I can read a novel or I can read the more efficent Cole's Notes. Watch a movie or read an online synopsis. I can do many things more efficiently (and usually I prefer to) but almost always I am trading speed for substance. Do only read the first and last chapters of a mystery novel? Do you wolf down a delicious meal rather than savour it? Chimpanzees have "efficient" sex but I don't plan on copying their methods anytime soon...

First of all, a question for you: Are you a religious guy? This would explain your objections to what I consider as simple observations of how life does not fit with this theory.

You are playing with semantics here, though maybe not intentionally. Efficiency does not relate to speed. Efficiency relates to a mechanism actually DOING what it is intended to do. So if the mechanism of reality is for God to experience itself in its highest form (hence the purpose of evolution), then your chimpanzee example and your wolfing-down-food example and your Cole's Notes example are all inapplicable.

As I said, IF the purpose of existence and consciousness is for God to experience itself and evolve into its highest form, then the vast majority of human experience is being absolutely *wasted* and not used in a constructive or creative manner at all.

Unless of course you consider mindless entertainment to be "savoring" life.

No, the mechanism of conscious existence on earth is not efficient for the stated purpose of evolving humanity and experiencing the highest form of God's consciousness. There is a wrench in the gears somewhere.

Originally Posted by CapnG

Right and wrong are human conventions, they have no bearing on the universe as a whole.

Semantics once again. If I state that the function of a car is to drive, then when the car is able to drive, it is working RIGHTLY and when it cannot drive it is working WRONGLY. I'm not speaking about human moral conventions, these are simply observations of how existence on earth does not actually match with what Bernard is describing.

It does partially, but there is another element that is not being addressed. In my opinion.

[Brian Now]

Originally Posted by BrandonD

There is a missing element to the discussion, in my opinion. If we take the discussion out of the purely intellectual realm, I think the idea that human existence is nothing more than a perfect god-like intelligence wishing to physically experience itself seems a little weak.

I agree. The general idea that the "universe" or "god" created the universe in order to satisfy some need to 'know itself' or to gain experience seems a little off. Maybe my problem is really an ingrained notion of the supreme (whatever it is) being somehow perfect. And how can something be complete and perfect and still need or want anything?
But I can also step back and consider the idea and the universe isn't trying to do anything in particular. Maybe the universe-as-experiment theory is only a slightly more sophisticated stab in the dark than Adam and Eve. Maybe it really is just a pointless, aimless (yet ordered) universe we live in.
That's sort of a liberating idea because it frees us from living under some divine plan or higher aim.

PS...are we going to have another BrandonD vs CapnG smackdown? I wanna get my popcorn now if so. :P

[BrandonD]

Originally Posted by UBERDOINK

They have an amazingly limited understanding of what religion, especially Christianity teaches...

Actually, that is a meaningless statement because only the shallowest tenets of christianity are universally accepted, the deeper ideas are all in dispute. HENCE baptists, catholics, lutherans, quakers, christian scientists, episcopalians, jehovah's witnesses, etc.

I know this not a pleasant fact to accept, but the bible is contradictory in many places, which allows for a whole range of belief systems, all of which are considered by their followers to be the "true" ideas of christianity.

[BrandonD]

Originally Posted by Brian Now

PS...are we going to have another BrandonD vs CapnG smackdown? I wanna get my popcorn now if so. :P

Ha! Can you grab me some junior mints while you're up?

[louis belanger]

I enjoyed that show.Dr Haich explained clearly his theory.Idon't agree totaly with him,mosthly about his neurosciences opinions,but if we want a dialectic movement ,we need a "No-god theory"

[CapnG]

Originally Posted by BrandonD

First of all, a question for you: Are you a religious guy? This would explain your objections to what I consider as simple observations of how life does not fit with this theory.

No. I'm a deist and a moderately agnostic one at that. I certainly do not believe in any man-made religious dogma.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

You are playing with semantics here, though maybe not intentionally. Efficiency does not relate to speed. Efficiency relates to a mechanism actually DOING what it is intended to do.

Semantics? A-hem, from the dictionary:

Efficent
–adjective
1. performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary.
2. satisfactory and economical to use: Our new air conditioner is more efficient than our old one.
3. producing an effect, as a cause; causative.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

As I said, IF the purpose of existence and consciousness is for God to experience itself and evolve into its highest form, then the vast majority of human experience is being absolutely *wasted* and not used in a constructive or creative manner at all.

The assumption of a need for efficiency on your part is just that, an assumption. None of us can know the motives or purpose of God so how could we possibly comment on his/her/its/their methods? We cannot therefore decry anything as "wasted". Simply because WE view it that way it would not follow that God does.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

Unless of course you consider mindless entertainment to be "savoring" life.

Perhaps the purpose is to get you to realize it is indeed mindless? If so then bravo, your particular fragment of god-conciousness is ahead of those who haven't.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

No, the mechanism of conscious existence on earth is not efficient for the stated purpose of evolving humanity and experiencing the highest form of God's consciousness.

By your standards, according to you.

Originally Posted by BrandonD

There is a wrench in the gears somewhere.

Again, says you. Who are you to be telling God he's doing it wrong?

Originally Posted by BrandonD

Semantics once again. If I state that the function of a car is to drive, then when the car is able to drive, it is working RIGHTLY and when it cannot drive it is working WRONGLY.

Really, must I go back to the dictionary AGAIN? A car that is unable to drive is not working "wrongly", it's not working PERIOD. But it's irrelevant anyway because right and wrong are simply judgements we make. Regardless of how we judge it, the car is still a car. Likewise whether or not you personally think the universe is operating correctly or not, it is still the universe. And those judgements are not always morally rooted either, sometimes they are arbitrary, kinda like the one you're making the case for here.

Originally Posted by Brian Now

PS...are we going to have another BrandonD vs CapnG smackdown? I wanna get my popcorn now if so.

I hope not. I went twelve rounds in a debate with a guy on another board already this week and I doubt I have it in me...