SeersWhat about seeing the future, or observing events in your mind that are happening in another part of the world? Please give us your opinions and your experiences.
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RE: Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia
That report says very little, really. It doesn't even say how things such as "10,000 volts/cm" were measured or with what and how one obtains a measurement is vital.
As far as the video you have posted, although I am a proponent of qi after teaching Shaolin gungfu for over 15 years, I would warn you that there are many, many martial frauds. Unfortunately, the audio was too poor (and my Chinese is a bit rusty) for me to catch a name but I do believe that methods to faking this exact type of qi demonstration is described in Leung Ting's books (Skills of the Vagabonds or Behind the Incredibles, Skills of the Vagabonds Part II)
. Both books are great references and, as my copies were borrowed over a decade ago and I have not seen them since, I cannot cite a specific reference. Since Amazon lists them, though, I think I just got two additions to my Christmas List!
When I was a regularly performing magician, I specialized in "weapons twirling," which is a mixture of real martial prowess and magic that originated with the Chinese version of snake oil salesmen.
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That report says very little, really. It doesn't even say how things such as "10,000 volts/cm" were measured or with what and how one obtains a measurement is vital.
None the less is doesn't state anywhere that the testers believe that she was trying to fool them or could see any trickery.
As for the vid i posted, i concede that is no way to verify any of his "show", but it is still interesting.
Michael, in your 15 years teaching Shaolin gungfu, did you have any reason to believe that the energy of the "qi" could enhance or improve your ability in your application of your gung fu?
Did any of your teachers or sifu, exhibit any extraordinary feats whilst drawing on the power of the qi?
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RE: Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia
That would depend on your definition of extraordinary I guess. I have yet to meet anyone who can make their sword fly to their hand Jedi style or fly or anything really cool like that. You can really hurt people by messing with their qi flow or "gathering" your qi. I have even met people who can break a single brick in a stack at the request of someone else (ie "Break the fifth one"). I have even seen, a very few times, what is often described as the qi glow, although glow really isn't the right term. It is more a weird discoloration in the area around someone's hand or feet kind of like heatwaves off a summer highway but not quite the same. But I have never seen any proven qi manipulation that did not require some type of physical contact. No PK, no Dragonball Z-style qi blasts, no distance healing even.
I am not some skeptic coming in to pee on everyone's parade, but I am also not a cheerleader for the paranormal. I think there is more out there than acknowledged by Western science, to be sure, but this just ain't it. Even the report posted is not exactly objective. Look at the references; the doctor is obviously a believer. The 'report' is a summary of the ladies powers, like a tale of the tape. The fact that they have powers seems a to be a given; even though the author says "alleged" at one point there isn't really an air of objectivity. Sure, it reports that researchers do not think they were fooled but it does not say why. It is hearsay. It does not prove that their methods were sound or that they know how to use their equipment.
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Once again you are "guessing" that the doctor is "obviously" a believer.
You keep on guessing in the hope that you will convince someone that everybody thinks that Kulagina was a fake.
I could also "guess" that Dr Lebdev was a non believer and that colored his summation of Kulagina.
And why would the researchers report why they think that they were not fooled? That doesn't even make any sense. They weren't fooled because they examined and checked her, before and after the testing. No magnets, magnetic powder, no nylon strings, no silk strings, no guitar strings, g-strings or any other "string" theory was found on her or about her.
Using your logic i would say that there is no such thing as "qi, chi or ki" . It is just something invented by martial artists to promote their martial art over regular combat arts.
The "glow" that you saw was probably sweat in your eyes and the "5th" brick was probably pre cracked by someone before they were stacked and placed in the stack at the 5th point and then the same person then asked the exponent to break that "5th" one.
It all comes down to belief. You either believe she WASN"T or that she WAS a fake.
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RE: Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia
No, I am not guessing. I am drawing a conclusion based on his sloppy methodology, his sources and the overall purpose of the paper, which is to compare the powers of two different alleged psychics, not validate their claims. This suggests acceptance of their "powers" and does nothing to explain why they are accepted.
Qi was not a theory developed by martial artists. It is an integral part of the medical science of the area that also spawned martial arts and it is used by gung fu men just as we use anatomy, the circulation and respiratory systems and the laws of physics according to our advantage. And martial arts are, by definition, combat arts. The systems that dedicate themselves to qi development actually tend to remove themselves from the combat arena and concentrate instead on healing.
Qi glow I have no really good defense or positive explanation for at all, although qi is electrical in nature (it is merely the Chinese term for the electrical charge of the human body used by the nervous system) and could easily cause a visual distortion. The bricks, among other demonstrations, have been performed under conditions that would lend credibility to them. Believe it or not, it is harder to fake something like that than it is PK powers. The demonstrator would have to introduce a gimmicked brick, which is hardly impossible but can be guarded against, know the number that will be selected in advance and then place the brick in the proper position. To fake PK powers you need to merely ditch and then retrieve a gimmick. In some cases, such as when the researchers are only looking for something magnetic and you are not using a magnet, you will not even need to do that.
When you say "using your logic" you are suggesting that logic is subjective. It is not. In fact, trying to switch the argument away from psychics to the validity of qi is a common ploy of illogical arguments. Granted, it was introduced conversationally via the second video but has nothing to do with the Russian psychics.
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I actually agree with you about "qi".
I believe in its power but you have not provided any proof of its existence. we can only take your word for it and from texts of ancient peoples, hardly definitive proof and therefore you are open to the same "irrational" debunking measures that Randi & Co. employ. They would tell you that there is No "qi" force.
Remember western medicine is only now admitting to some eastern medical theories but on the whole they are dismissed as quackery and fraud, which i think is a shame .
We could go no and on about the truth of Ninel Kulagina. I can present dozens of reports and facts supporting her and you can produce dozens of reports dismissing her. I think she will remain an enigma as it is impossible to test her again as she is dead.
I respect your belief about her and i am glad that this has been a somewhat rational debate and not descended into a name calling and mud slinging exercise. In the end we probably agree on more issues than you think.
I will leave this with you, having your opinion of her (and respectfully so)
and me with my opinion of her and agree to disagree.
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RE: Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia
I will agree to disagree, but would like end by saying that any investigation of this type of thing would profit from having a professional trickster such as myself on board. We are equipped to account for things that a scientist would not be.
As far as qi, it is probably more accepted than you would think. One of the huge problems is not the validity because there are many, many studies showing the effectiveness of Chinese medicine and acupuncture but that the unregulated nature of Chinese medicine led to many unqualified people running around. I have a friend who received a "treatment" in which needles were actually inserted with a hammer! Aiya!
Perhaps that needs its own thread.
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Once someone has been shown to be a fake, why should they retain any credibility?
One obvious reason to look skeptically upon a psychic's "discrediting", is when the psychic is debunked by a person with the specific agenda of discrediting all psychic abilites.
You should really consider this with people like Gardner and Randi. They serve a useful function in the paranormal arena, but they have their own blinders which should always be taken into consideration.
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10-19-2007, 12:39 PM
RE: Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia
