That Clinched Up Gut Feeling Again...

[Michael L.]

I am listening to the 8/31 episode and I am getting that sick feeling again that I get whenever I hear non-physicists throwing around theoretical physics. I went to college on a scholarship and was being fast tracked into the Physics Department. I was a physics major for about a year and then switched to Fine Arts (and dropped out when the Fine Arts department was gutted due to budget cuts). You know what I learned in that year? Lay people shouldn't talk about physics, particularly theoretical physics.

I don't have a problem with researchers pointing out that physicists are now exploring the possibility of faster than light travel, etc... but whenever people start to explain quantum physics, string theory or even Einstein's work, I get a sick feeling.

It seems to me that theoretical physics (not necessarily on this particular episode) are being looked to as the new magic. The mind/universe connection, physics being tossed out as fact when it is very, very theoretical and even the statement Hastings made about "lots of" college physics professors not being aware of proposed higher dimensional space make me queasy. Einstein's model does not guarantee 3 or 4 dimensions... forget it. I am not going to do what I am complaining about, which is to shoot my mouth off about a subject I am not qualified to address. Suffice to say that they were no doubt aware of such theories, as 4 dimensional models have been around for decades. However, since they are simply THEORIES they may not grant them the same intellectual weight as a UFO researcher.

When researchers drop into arguing physics without the education or understanding to back it up, they might as well be presenting evidence gathered by psychic research methods. I wish everyone would stick to facts and gathering evidence, not playing Newton.

[DBTrek]

So . . . maybe we could remedy that by making anyone who wants to talk in an authoritative manner about physics solve a brutal calculus problem before turning on their mic (or posting)?

I'm in!

[Hoffmeister]

I agree with what some of what you are saying. Roberts tone suggested that he thinks he knows a whole lot about the Universe that many others don't.
However I feel there are some contradictions in what you say, and I believe it is important for conversations that talk about UFO's to try and link it to possible scientific theories. Otherwise we are simply considering it with regards to science fiction (I know the two can be very similar sometimes).
What else can the layman do but listen to the top scientists in the world and try to extrapolate some meaning from what they are saying, into subjects that they themselves know about.

Your statement about Ufologists not presuming they know more than Physicists carries weight based upon the last episode, and I think Robert perhaps un-intentionally made himself sound arrogant about the subject.

The fact is, that its interesting to link theoretical science with Ufology as it gets our mind going, but we need to make sure we don't presume that because we have seen the odd documentary, we know all the answers.

But listening to Gene (or was it David i dont remember) talk about the Aliens being from other dimensions is IMO interesting because it gets us thinking, and thats what the field is all about.

However, I think Roberts point was that prior to recent years, people thought that there would be no way to travel faster than light, so we would never reach the stars. But now modern science is very optimistic about it, and the reason for this is the new prevalent mutli dimensional theories such as M-theory etc (11 dimensions)

I would like to say more on this matter but I am aware that its late and as a result I am really waffling a load of nonsense

[Ally]

First of all does modern physics/academia know where to put the the UFO phenomema in their worldviews? Are you just venting in general or did Hastings say something in particlular? From someone that isn't familiar with what is taught in physics in College now I thought he was informative. I think it is healthy to question the status quo and worldveiw of our society.

What do you think aobut Michio Kaku's work?

[Hoffmeister]

I think Robert was just really having a pop at the debunkers view of 'I don't need to reaseach something to discount it' a-la Seth Shostak on Black holes (Larry King).
Because of his tone the original poster felt that he was being arrogant. The fact is, I am not Michio Kaku, yet I have a science degree, I have read many books on cosmology and string theory etc, and I have spoken to at least 1 of the worlds leading scientists on such subjects at the University in my hometown about such matters.

Does this mean I can't express an opinion on how such theories might relate to UFO's??? I hope not . Apart from the actual deep mathematics which is mind bogglingly complex at it lowest level, I think I have a pretty good understanding of some of these theories.
But then again I suppose I dont suggest that I know about it than professional scientists.

Its a tough one really, but I the message from Robert was perhaps misunderstood, or the original poster is just thinking about things too hard

[DBTrek]

Originally Posted by Hoffmeister

Because of his tone the original poster felt that he was being arrogant. The fact is, I am not Michio Kaku, yet I have a science degree, I have read many books on cosmology and string theory etc, and I have spoken to at least 1 of the worlds leading scientists on such subjects at the University in my hometown about such matters.

Does this mean I can't express an opinion on how such theories might relate to UFO's??? I hope not .

If his frustrations are anything like mine, it's not over people expressing opinions on how theories might relate to UFO's. The frustration is with lay men trying to use physics like a club to silence their critics when they have no idea what they're talking about.

. . . or 'Korff'ng' it as it were.

-DBTrek

[Michael L.]

Hastings was, by no means, the worst offender. He actually barely broached the subject of physics. Like I said, I have no problem with anyone stating "headlines" in physics. When he says that many physicists are considering FTL a possibility, that is true enough. However, when he makes statements about Einstein to try to explain his theories, I find them to be less than accurate. When he states that physicists were unaware of advanced theories (such as string theory), I again think this probably reflects his own lack of understanding of physics.

And that is what I have a problem with in general. Too many people in the paranormal fields refer to String Theory, Super String Theory and Quantum Theory as if they are established facts and completely understood while they are, in fact, neither. I have even heard people saying things like "Einstein was wrong..." because of new theories that may allow FTL travel. However, they do not prove Einstein wrong at all (they skip around him). It troubles me and if you are trying to win over science, well, when a serious physicist starts to hear people murdering physics they assign them less credibility!

It seems to me that UFO researchers need to remember that at this point they are researchers. We need forensic evidence at this point... you don't need to have your own theories on the human genome to take blood samples. You don't need to to be an FBI profiler to take fingerprints. Besides, everything else gets you in trouble. The more conjecture in UFO statements, the easier it is to punch holes in them.

Please understand, I really don't have a problem with Robert Hastings; I found him very interesting. He did trip a pet peeve, though.

[AnnetteMarie]

Originally Posted by Michael L.

Suffice to say that they were no doubt

Anyone who demonstrates sufficient intelligence to use the word suffice correctly in a sentence - as Michael has - should be listened to and their opinions given weight.

However, that won't stop me from theorizing, thinking, and trying to understand what the latest published theories mean to currently unexplained phenomena - although it may stop me from committing the crime of beating my hubby over the head with an obscure bit of physics theory from a sound bite I only vaguely remember hearing in a PBS documentary!

[Hoffmeister]

Yeah I do here what you are saying. I suppose though Michael that there is no foresnsic evidence really... a few holes in the ground, a bit of radiation here and there. Ufology (damn i hate the word) is not a science in most ways, its an interesting conversation piece that we want to find more about IMO.

Thats why many of the mainstream dismiss it, and thats why the Ufo lot want the mainstream/government to come in and do some proper testing (i'm not sure what they'd do).
I still think that anyone is allowed to use current scientific theories to speculate, as long as they don't get too big for their boots.

The funny thing is, the theoretical scientists who put forward the theeories are in many ways similar to UFO people. A bunch of slightly out-there (no offense meant to UFO'ists or scientists) people all dog-fighting amongst themselves over whose opinion is better/correct, with lots of different opinions and claims mudying the water, but at the end of it all some great thoughts and ideas coming out.

As for proof of extra dimensions, we may get it in 8 days when they turn on the Large Hadron Collider (i'm rather excited).... or if you believe the british tabloids (see yesterdays Sun), we have 8 days left before the world is consumed by a black hole created by it. Personally I think we should wait until 2012 before we turn it on, just to fuel the speculation. Whichever happens... we'll get the answers to some of our questions....