Bin Laden's role?

[CapnG]

I'm gonna shock you fitz. I think you're right.

Photo manipulation is not my forte but I know my photoshop basics and after resizing, skewing and adjusting for colour based on your sample screencaps I found an approximate version of the "fat" OBL grinning back at me. The nose still wasn't right and the ear's a bit off but I don't have pure sources. So, while all my previous ranting about facial recognition remains true, I recognize that all that goes out the window if the source has been tampered with as this appears to have been. In fact, my hat's off to whoever did the tampering because they knew to modify the key markers that make facial recognition possible (at least for that still) just enough to call authenticity into question.

On a seperate note, I also found what appears to be the hijacking procedures manual:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/010601dod

What I find odd is that the FAA doesn't seem to call NORAD directly. They call central command who advises DOD who contacts the Secretary of Defense (in this case Rumsfeld) who then authorizes military force. That means that if indeed there were adminstration officials complicit in the 9/11 events then all Rumsfeld would have to do is make himself scarce until after the crisis thereby gumming up the works long enough to prevent a defense action and the goal is achieved.

And therein lies the core problem with the whole 9/11 issue for me. Eveytime I see something (like the photo comparison) that makes me suspicious and eventually gets dispelled to the point where I'm ready to say "You know, maybe it really was 19 pissed off muslim guys" I come across something like that FAA manual that raises my eyebrows. The way it's written, it's almost like it's INTENDED to fail.

[Aaron LeClair]

I agree. There is still a lot of mystery about this video, it's sources, etc.. I can't speak to any of that. The gentleman in the film with OBL (on the right side of the footage) certainly has an interesting history.

On, no. I don't think there's a mystery. Only people not realizing that faces change when people laugh, and can appear differently from camera angles and time. Also lighting etc can make a tom cruise look like a tom booze. I noticed you said, I agree, is why I point that out. I didn't mean to imply there is a lot of mystery to this vid. IF that is what impression you got from my statements.

Capn isn't a moron, and I respect his views. He may well be right. But if he is, I sure as hell don't see it through the VAST majority of the vid.

[fitzbew88]

Originally Posted by Paranormal Packrat

On, no. I don't think there's a mystery. Only people not realizing that faces change when people laugh, and can appear differently from camera angles and time. Also lighting etc can make a tom cruise look like a tom booze. I noticed you said, I agree, is why I point that out.

I don't understand. I was agreeing with your statement that "someone would be suspicious after looking at the still Capn posted."

Originally Posted by Paranormal Packrat

I didn't mean to imply there is a lot of mystery to this vid. IF that is what impression you got from my statements.

I think there is still some mystery surrounding the video. Especially the "logistics". For purposes of this thread, my main focus has been whether there is a sound reason to believe that the OBL in the video is fake.

I don't understand the part about the impression.

Originally Posted by Paranormal Packrat

Capn isn't a moron, and I respect his views. He may well be right. But if he is, I sure as hell don't see it through the VAST majority of the vid.

I agree with every word of this, and hopefully I have clearly shown that Capn's views are worthy of time and energy. (Pssst. You don't think he'll read that, do you? )

[fitzbew88]

Originally Posted by CapnG

...I also found what appears to be the hijacking procedures manual:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/010601dod

Good stuff. This document is mentioned as a source in the 9/11 Report.

Originally Posted by CapnG

What I find odd is that the FAA doesn't seem to call NORAD directly. They call central command who advises DOD who contacts the Secretary of Defense (in this case Rumsfeld) who then authorizes military force.

These are military procedures. They are written to give military personnel guidance when they receive requests for help from the FAA in the event of a hijacking or if military resources are necessary to destroy "derelict airborne objects".

Interestingly, the section excerpted below seems to preclude the use of force in a civilian hijacking event.

Enclosure A-1.3.a states:

"Military personnel will provide the following types of support: intercept, surveillance, lift, equipment, and communications. Military personnel may not participate in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity. This restriction would include the apprehension of aircraft hijackers or use of military aircraft (fixed-wing or helicopter) or other vehicles as platforms for gunfire or the use of other weapons against suspected hijackers."

The 9/11 Report says

"Prior to 9/11, it was understood that an order to shoot down a commercial aircraft would have to be issued by the National Command Authority (a phrase used to describe the president and secretary of defense)."

It was presumed that the process would be something like:
1) The FAA would determine a hijacking was in process.
2) They would request support from the national military command
3) The national military command would marshall any assets necessary (in this case, presumably NORAD assets.)
4) If it became necessary to shoot a commercial airliner down, the order could come from either the President or the Secretary of Defense.

But this is all sort've academic since the policy wasn't followed.

FAA personnel at Boston Center called their regional NORAD center directly (not the national NORAD command -- Washington was circumvented). The request was not initiated by FAA/HQ. (In fact, the Pentagon NMCC---National Military Command Center---called over to the FAA about 9:00am --- the NMCC found out about the unfolding events from television. The FAA had not notified NMCC of the events.) And none of the "national" folks seemed to have any idea that jets had already been scrambled at 8:38am.

There were continued discussions between NMCC and FAA between 9:00am and 9:29am, but if anything effective was done during this period, I don't know what it was. At 9:29am, the NMCC decided to start a conference call to manage the crisis. The FAA was not added to this conferencal call initially due to technical problems..the FAA didn't begin to participate until 10:17am. (By this time the event had been over for 14 minutes.) And the FAA participant that did participate had no operational authority.

An absolute flustercluck.

The NMCC received confirmation that fighters could shoot down any hijacked airplanes directly from military personnel at the White House between 10:14am 10:19am. This was quickly relayed to NORAD, which quickly flashed the "shoot-down" clearance to it's subsidiary commands at 10:31am. NEADS (Northeast Air Defense Sector), the NORAD subsidiary command that was central to the military response that day received the message authorizing shoot downs. But the local NEADS commander did not pass the clearance to shoot to the actual planes because he said he was unaware of its ramifications. (Huh?) So the planes that had been scrambled into the air by NEADS did not know that they could shoot.

But two planes that had scrambled WERE given permission to shoot. How did this happen? Andrews AFB called the Secret Service directly when it heard that the Secret Service wanted patrols over DC. In that conversation, the Secret Service relayed directly from the Vice President that the President had authorized shooting. The planes from Andrews were given permission to shoot by their local commander at 10:42am. The 9/11 Report says

"...There is no evidence that NORAD headquarters or military officials in the NMCC knew—during the morning of September 11—that the Andrews planes were airborne and operating under different rules of engagement."

So at this point, the Air Force had some planes in the air with permission to shoot and others without. But does it really matter? At least some of the pilots did not know why they had been scrambled:

"...the lead pilot explained,“I reverted to the Russian threat...I’m thinking cruise missile threat from the sea.You know you look down and see the Pentagon burning and I thought the bastards snuck one by us. . . . you couldn’t see any airplanes, and no one told us anything.” The pilots knew their mission was to divert aircraft, but did not know that the threat came from hijacked airliners."

Flustercluck X 2.

Originally Posted by CapnG

That means that if indeed there were adminstration officials complicit in the 9/11 events then all Rumsfeld would have to do is make himself scarce until after the crisis thereby gumming up the works long enough to prevent a defense action and the goal is achieved.

If the commander at NMCC requests permission to shoot, I think the President would also need to be scarce.

I'm not sure how to plan a complex operation like 9/11 in a system like this. You can't count on anyone adhering to policy; you can't even count on any regional command entity to know what the policies/procedures are.

Infuriating.

Originally Posted by CapnG

And therein lies the core problem with the whole 9/11 issue for me. Eveytime I see something (like the photo comparison) that makes me suspicious and eventually gets dispelled to the point where I'm ready to say "You know, maybe it really was 19 pissed off muslim guys" I come across something like that FAA manual that raises my eyebrows. The way it's written, it's almost like it's INTENDED to fail.

I agree with you in the sense that the manual was totally useless for the circumstances that arose on 9/11.

I hope they've been able to sort all this out over the last seven years.

[Experiencer7]

Viva la Revolucion! Break out those rusty guillotines., oil them, sharpen them and have at it.

[CapnG]

Originally Posted by xperiancer7

Viva la Revolucion! Break out those rusty guillotines., oil them, sharpen them and have at it.

Do you really think tetanus (sp?) is a concern when you're decapitating the oligarchs?

[Experiencer7]

Originally Posted by CapnG

Do you really think tetanus (sp?) is a concern when you're decapitating the oligarchs?

The blade could hang up half way through the cut. Then you would have to jump up and down on it., inching it down. How uncivilized.